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 HP vs. (Mag) Def Shards/Refines  
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SleepCat Director
Posts : 438 Join date : 20090413 Age : 97
Character Stats Class: Venomancer Level: 102
 Subject: HP vs. (Mag) Def Shards/Refines Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:13 pm  
 Copied and pasted from Nightfaii  Harshlands' guide on the official boards. There are hundreds of threads covering the topic of HP vs. Def, but the conclusions are always controversial. You still see some players equipped with HP shards and others with defense, but who really has it figured out? I did this work for my own benefit, but I will share what I found. It surprised me. Also, please help me if I'm wrong. Ok, so this page is different from before. Thank you to everybody who helped find my errors. My answer: Use the image below... 1. Find your level and the corresponding value on the graph. 2. Take how much defense you have and add that value to it. (This is how much HP you should get) 3. If you have less HP than that number, it is better to add HP shards. 4. If you have more HP than that number, it is better to add defense shards. (Repeat process for m.def and p.def seperately) More about the derivations of this graph and the editing up to this date: Seems my work from before had an error in the defense calculations. 1. Adding defense gives exponentially less % reduction in damage the higher defense is 2. Adding defense % gives exponentially more survivability increase the higher defense is (1. and 2. give a linear change for each point added. The slope is 1/(40*Level).) 1 and 2 were considered in my previous calculations but not #3.3. The defense you currently have affects the effective increase of the HP (and visaversa) Formulas: 1. Def/(1+40*L) = Damage reduction 2. 1/(1%DR) = Survivability multiplier 3. (These are still correct, the rest was edited with better reasoning) (A) Survivability for +1 Def: HP/(1(Def+1)/(Def+1+40*L)) (B) Survivability for +1 HP: (HP+1)/(1Def/(Def+40*L)) The chart shows how much more Survivability your getting from +1 HP on a level 50 character with the specific defense amounts. (eq.A minus eq.B) Consider the bars above the line mean add HP, and bars below the line mean add Def. The number value for level 50 from the first graph is 2000. 2000+0 defense = 2000 HP minimum before def shards become more effective 2000+1000 defense = 3000 HP minimum before def shards become more effective 2000+3000 defense = 5000 HP minimum before def shards become more effective Thank you WarrenWolfy, your explanations are also helpful... Refer to page 7 for recent changes and opinions on this edited thread Click Here_________________ 
   WilliamBlake Commissioner
Posts : 101 Join date : 20090412
 Subject: Re: HP vs. (Mag) Def Shards/Refines Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:30 pm  
 caveat to all of this.
bm and cleric buffs add a bonus +50% defense, so each defense point will count for 1.5x (or 2.0x) their normal value if you take buffs into account.
furthermore, for barbs, the tank (for whom these calculations are the most relevant), each point of physical defense will count for 1.6x the normal value in tiger form. so really, with heavy armour, the only defense that will be talked about is mdef.
assuming no cleric buffs, based on this guy's argument, each additional point of mdef is more useful than hp after a certain point because of the low base mdef. however, barbs get a total of 60% bonus hp in lvl 3 tiger and lvl 10 hp buff. therefore, each point of hp counts for 1.6 times its normal value. in other words, the slope of the first graph will become more steep (1.6x? i don't know the mathematical basis for the guy's graph).
in short, if you are a barb, hp is king. even if mdef does eventually become more effective for survivability based on some mathematical calculation, hp provides survivability in ALL situations, not just when being hit by magic nukes. furthermore, higher max hp values will mean that % heals will be effective  the genie skill tree of protection will heal for more hp, hp charms will tick less often (though for more if they do tick!), etc. and, as an added bonus, it looks cool when you talk about your 10k hp at level 70.
*edit* i just realized what else was bugging me. mdef will have diminishing returns after a certain level. that is, 1000 points of mdef are more effective at lower base levels than at higher base levels. however, 1000 hp is effective regardless of base. if you have 5000 hp, 1000 hp is 1000 damage more that you can take, even though the % increase in effectiveness is lower than, say, 1000 hp added to 1000 hp. for mdef, though, 1000 mdef added onto to 5000 mdef will not increase the damage reduction by 20%, or even the % damage reduction by 20%.
in addition to this, identically tiered hp and mdef shards give different numerical values. a beautiful citrine adds 32 hp, while a beautiful sapphire adds 23 mdef. i wonder if the mathemagician took this into account. because even if 100 mdef will help effective hp more than 100 hp, it will take 3 beautiful citrines to get ~100 hp, vs 4 beautiful sapphires. thus, cost effectiveness and the limitation of the number of sockets will tip the scales further in favour of hp shards.
i guess what i'm trying to say after this long diatribe is that HP shards are ALWAYS more effective. there is a reason they are priced higher than their counterparts, and no amount of flashy graphs and formulae will change this reality.
Last edited by WilliamBlake on Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:58 pm; edited 1 time in total 
   Conducto Commissioner
Posts : 64 Join date : 20090414 Age : 37 Location : Pekin, Illinois
Character Stats Class: Cleric Level: 82
 Subject: Re: HP vs. (Mag) Def Shards/Refines Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:53 pm  
 His math calculations are on page 7 of where you got that graph.
Even with arcane gear, it's better for me to shard hp (being a full atk cleric) doing the numbers, if i went 1str/6mag/3vit every 2 lvl's it'd be 50/50 hp/def shards. So, in almost every case HP will give a greater benefiting factor. Unless you wear heavy armor and fight all magic mobs. Tho i think heavy wearing ppl can still wear light? 
   WilliamBlake Commissioner
Posts : 101 Join date : 20090412
 Subject: Re: HP vs. (Mag) Def Shards/Refines Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:00 pm  
 edited the first post before i saw conducto's post. in response, no, heavy wearing people can't wear light unless they invest heavily in dex. and my reply is that it doesn't matter what class you are, hp shards are better in terms of cost effectiveness, potential for upgrade, and general survivability.
*edit again* in case there is confusion, i'm not disputing the validity of the guy's math. i'm disputing the limited scope of the calculations. they do not take into account the effect of buffs or the fact that equally tiered citrines and sapphires will give different numerical bonuses.
even if at a certain level, each point of mdef will be more effective than each point of hp (which is what his graphs indicate), how much more effective will they be? a beautiful citrine gives 32 hp vs a beautiful sapphire, which gives 23 mdef. the 9 point difference means that sapphires are only preferential if, at that level, each point of mdef is 39% (9/23) more effective than hp.
the guy's calculations do not take into account a lot of necessary information. this is not a character modification screen, where there are a fixed amount of points to add to any particular value. the realities of limited sockets, differences in shards, and squad play turn this guy's mathematically interesting calculations into meaningless and misguided information. 
   Conducto Commissioner
Posts : 64 Join date : 20090414 Age : 37 Location : Pekin, Illinois
Character Stats Class: Cleric Level: 82
 Subject: Re: HP vs. (Mag) Def Shards/Refines Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:12 pm  
 Ok, gotcha, i was going by a point by point system. I'm surprised noone has created a character creator including possible buffs and additions, using attack, defense, evasion, ect... formula's. 
   WilliamBlake Commissioner
Posts : 101 Join date : 20090412
 Subject: Re: HP vs. (Mag) Def Shards/Refines Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:58 pm  
 
   Conducto Commissioner
Posts : 64 Join date : 20090414 Age : 37 Location : Pekin, Illinois
Character Stats Class: Cleric Level: 82
 Subject: Re: HP vs. (Mag) Def Shards/Refines Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:39 am  
 That was kinda my point when stating his calculations. According to him, in pretty much every instance it's better for HP. Lets see if i get this right: lvl 101 vit cleric (1str 6mag 3vit every 2 lvl's) (55str 305 mag 155vit) I can't remember what a lvl gives a cleric in hp, but i think vit gives 13 and i think 22 for lvl. And i'll use MY P.Def, as i know a lvl 101 will be higher, but this will prove more of him being possibly wrong. My P.Def 2261 HP of a lvl 101 vit cleric with no extras 4237 So: from the graph, looks like 4khp neededbefore factoring in persons P.def, so, add 2261 Looks like it's supposed to be 6261 before using def shards. Which would not make sense, because, that's the LOWEST end of the P.def spectrum, with the highest possible hp unaltered. (arcane gear, as much vit as can be used while still using lvl of mag weapon) I think he deleted his other posts, but i think his calculation was 40*lvl (4040) + def (2261) Still, 6301, can't be right. 
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 Subject: Re: HP vs. (Mag) Def Shards/Refines  
 
    HP vs. (Mag) Def Shards/Refines  

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